I started to read the whole story but concluded I wouldn't be able to recognize what you have judged to be its merits. Care to give us a bit more guidance?

I'll point out the obvious fact that the intolerant Topeka baptists are "churchgoin' folks" too.

I'm no expert on the scriptures but is pride still considered a sin in this day and age? Oh NED!

I'll try my best.

1) A very real attraction to churches is the concept of community. I cannot choose my family or my countrymen, but I might find a church that includes people whom I enjoy being around. I might rely on these people in times of difficulty and try to help them through theirs. This reason has kept me trying different churches over the years. I've never found one but the idea still holds great appeal to me.

2) The belief of the intelligencia (maybe I can piss off you and Silence in one post!) is that the Bush voters were all religious nuts who came out to oppose gay marriage and voted for W while they were out. Sixty million Bush voters equals 60 million troglodyte bigots.

Those people would expect every church in a red state to lynch its gay members, not protect them.

3) Back to Jonathan Lasts's point: we call ourselves divided because some of us want to open marriage to homosexuals and some would allow only a "civil union" (a minority wants to ban it altogether). Our fundamentalist enemies, conversely, argue whether they should be beheaded or buried alive. Red/blue differences pale when compared to US/al-Qaeda differences.

3) Lastly, you might appreciate that these people are (unexpectedly, perhaps) standing up for this young man's individuality. I did.

Pride is one of the seven "cardinal" sins. You say "this day and age" -- some of these people pride themselves on their devotion to very old scriptures and laws.

But that would be one of many things that have prevented my finding a church. My Catholic upbringing is more conducive to collectivism than individualism. Pride bad, rich bad, self-centered bad.

Nope, you can't get me on 2) when I completely agree with your 1). I had a Protestant upbringing and have spent the last 20 years in an on again off again fashion performing the same church search you speak of. I liked the story, good to see some of Jesus' people listened to his teachings.

Whether you pissed anyone off or not, 2) is correct. But the belief of the intelligentsia does not equal Reality. (Big R reality... the one we all share, not the relativistic perception "reality.") Religious nuts are a Bush constituency but just as the trade unions for Kerry, he couldn't win with them alone.

But I do see where you're going with this: The good people of flyover country are as tolerant, or more so, than their blue county brethren. I agree with that assessment but I don't see how church members "protecting" a gay member from the church members of another state is complementary of any church based in any of the various flavors of the same ridiculous premise: That there is a God and that because "He" loves you "He" will "provide" for you. Nature "provides," productive individuals "provide," Reality "provides." The argument that God "provides" because he created all these other things that provide is PURE chicanery! (Pay no attention to those men behind the curtain.)

I remember the closing scene of an episode of the old TV show 'The A-Team:' Hannibal and his violent pals had just liberated a small country church and it's congregation from the clutches of a violent criminal gang. "We are better off now," said the preacher to Hannibal, "but I cannot condone your methods." The preacher could not draw a distinction between aggressive violence and defensive violence. Instead he relied upon "God's laws" to protect him and his flock. What the A-Team (and the folks at Cornerstone Church) did was use their own initiative to defeat injustice. In both cases the injustice was violation of every individual's right to liberty and self-determination. THIS is what is good about flyover country. Yes, it is often found in churches but that is coincidental, not causal. It can be found in every building and institution in red country because it is central to the values of its residents. Harry Binswanger identified it most clearly: independence vs. dependance.

After being chastized by the somewhat ingrateful country preacher, Hannibal looked at him, took his cigar out of his mouth and said, "I'll never cease to wonder what would become of people like you without people like us."

For the record, I'd say that human innovation provides and let the philosophers sort out whether there is a divine source of human innovation.

To the real question of why the &$#^% did jk post this story, I guess it's the surprise element, some behavior not expected by intelligencia or me. And a soft reminder of that community benefit of churches.

This post really needs to be about a book length long but I will try to give the short version.

I contend that Church by it's very nature cannot provide what Silence and JK are seeking. This theory is based on the following premises. 1) A church is an organization of people with a common belief in some sort of God. 2) A belief in God requires faith. 3) Faith by definition is a belief in something without empirical evidence. 4) To feel comfortable belonging to a church requires faith. The answers to the question of what to have faith in provide core values to most churchgoers.

JK and Silence seem to be looking for a community of people that share their values. I think this is admirable, and I am looking for such as well. So what kind of people do they find in any given church? Unfortunately they find those whose values are based on faith which is necessarily defined differently by different churches and different people.

Then when a disagreement is discovered there is no way to reconcile it since there is no evidence in such matters. Your only choices are to go search for yet another church or to convince your church to believe the way you do. Since there is no evidence to use logic for convincing others the only other recourse for resolving differences is violence. This is why religion, all religion, leads so easily and naturally to violence. You will not find what you are looking for in a Church because churches, of necessity, are totalitarian with no provision for reconciling differences.

Well said, Dagny. You are correct. It could perhaps be put less philosophically as "I want church without religion." I guess I always have the G.O.P...

Hello, my name is Shannon Watie, first of all I am 29 year old father of 2 boys (3 year old and 1 1/2). We have attended Cornerstone for about a year. I have been a follower of Christ for 13 years. Just in the last 5 years, I finally understood what it means to be a believer. We have a couple of sayings at Cornerstone "Hate the Sin, but Love the sinner". Society mainly (Christians) themselves have tried to categorize "sin". In the teaching of Christ my belief is that 1) we all sin (thats why we need Christ) 2) no sin is greater than another (my pride, lying, or drunkness) is no different then Michael's homosexuality. I have a new understanding of what a "Church" should be. We should be a hospital for "sinners" myself, My pastor, anyone and everyone. This church that came to spread hate (false teaching) is completely wrong. My job (just one begger leading another to bread) is to love the person, and Christ will take care of convicting them of their sin(convicting is not my job I have my own to deal with). I or the Church is not suppose to convict anyone of their sin(holy spirit will handle this). When the church (Westboro) wanted to picket our church, thats fine I really wanted to love on them too (but they pretty much hate anyone and everyone). Michael walks in to our Church with a sign that (he really don't just everyone knows) "hey homosexuality is my sin". No one else walks in with hey I am a adultress, murderer, I'm a theif, Liar, I worry (should have more faith) or whatever. I really respect this young man for what he did, and I pray for him daily. This has nothing to do with Bush or Kerry (I did vote for Bush), gay marriage (voted against it), red or blue states. It has to do with being "Christ Like". I am not stating I am a saint, cause I struggle daily. Christians needs to forget about looking at the persons sin, what they wear, what they look like, or what kind of job they have. We just need to love people as Christ did. I am sorry I got on a soap box. I wanted to give more detail account of everything. Our Church has "homeless people praising with Lawyers". By the way Ted Koppel from Nightline is going to be at our church on Dec 11th and 12th, I guess he is going to do a piece on everything.

Thanks Shannon

Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I liked the story of your church very much.

Good luck with Mr. Koppel -- I fear you may end up liking the Topeka interlopers better than Condescending Ted -- but I hope it goes well.